17 Comments »

  dwain wrote @ November 21st, 2009 at 07:33

Fantastic and appreciated info, as always! I’m glad the new gov’t is relaxing the rather outdated laws regarding movement in and out of the country. The next step that would be nice would be streamlining and quickening the process of getting the visa from 6 months to something around 3 months.

Kat Reply:
November 21st, 2009 at 19:26

I wish this had been done years ago, so my friends weren’t left heartbroken and without closure in missing their mother’s and grandparents’ funerals. They just wanted to say their last goodbye.

Do you mean visa or permit…or both? I’d like to see permits issued more quickly, not waiting six months to a year or more.

  Tauros wrote @ November 21st, 2009 at 23:17

Hi Kat,

I have completely failed to think of any logical reason that someone with a bebaiosi cannot travel outside the country except to visit their “home country” within the declared timeframes. It makes very little sense for an initial application, and none whatsoever for a renewal. I ask you or anyone else to please advise if you can think of a good reason.

You do say that the Gov’t has shown some indication of changing this law. Let’s hope they do. But no one should hold their breath waiting for it to happen. The country as a whole fears immigration in many respects (how much better they would be if they feared emigration to the same degree…), and I don’t see it
being any big priority. But I suppose, as we’re constantly reminded, we chose to live here!

Regards

Kat Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:49

Traveling with a bebaiosi is an issue because it’s only a receipt or acknowledgment that the applicant has deposited his/her papers to be reviewed for possible issuance of a permit. Regardless how English-language media and Embassies interpret the paper, the bebaiosi is not a temporary permit because nothing has been officially approved, and it is not (and cannot be) a visa because: a) Schengen allows 90 days maximum stay in any 180-day period; and b) the bebaiosi and (hopefully) permit is based on his/her original visa; issuing another visa would moot the application for the permit.

Therefore, unless the applicant’s original visa is still valid, he/she technically has no official, legal status in Greece or anywhere. If he/she leaves the country for any reason, Greece has no obligation to grant re-entry because all they have an expired visa (no permission to enter Greece or any country) and no residence permit (no permission to live in Greece or anywhere). One’s homeland is an exception, of course, because the applicant has citizenship there.

The reason the Greek government of past and present has given some importance to the bebaiosi is because it takes so long to issue a permit.
– By law, a first-time applicant should begin submitting papers within 30 days of arrival. If the visa is valid for a remaining 60 days, and the permit only took 90 days to issue, the most an applicant with only a bebaiosi could wait to leave the country is 30 days. No big deal.
– By law, a renewal applicant should begin submitting papers at least 60 days before the permit’s expiration. If the expiring permit has validity for 60 days, and the new permit took only 90 days to be issued, the most an applicant with only a bebaiosi could wait to leave the country is 30 days. Again, no big deal.

But in reality, a person could wait up to a year or more to have a Greek permit issued, so there’s more than 30 days at stake. A person is then ’sentenced’ to remain inside Greece’s borders while time passes, forgoing holidays, births, deaths, traveling for business or pleasure. Life.

  Tauros wrote @ November 23rd, 2009 at 21:44

Hi Kat,
Understand that the bebaiosi is only a receipt for what appeared to be a properly completed application for residence at the time it was submitted , including that they legally entered the country. But per Greek law, “Third-country nationals who have promptly submitted an application for the issuance or renewal of a residence permit with all required documentation and have received the certificate of deposit referred to in the preceding paragraph shall be considered as legally residing in the country until the administration decides on their request.” (Greek law 3386/05 {last amended 23Sep2009} Art 11, par. 4; the English version as published on several GR Gov’t web sites)

So what I fail to see is, why if a person legally resides in Greece they cannot depart the country and return as long as an adverse decision has not been made on their application? The answer seems to be implicitly admitted in the recent decision to grant a 13 ½ month window for “bebaiosi-holders” to depart/return.

As to where they travel, that should be up to those countries. I would argue that at the point they are granted the right to legally reside in Greece, whether it be through a bebaiosi or residence permit, they are not up against the “Schengen clock” for their time in Greece after issuance of the relevant authorization to remain there, given that Greece has granted them the right to reside in a (specific) Schengen country for an undefined period. But if for the sake of argument that’s a factor to another Schengen country besides Greece, that should still have no bearing on travel to one (of the large majority) of non-Schengen countries in the world. (In practice of course, one runs the risk of being “invited” for an interview in Greece and missing it due to their absence, which will effectively cause their application to be cancelled. But that’s in the category of adverse decision – for failure to appear for interview – and not for absence from the country per se.)

Finally, I understand that the above argument is not how the (majority of) Greek authorities will likely view the situation; I just don’t understand the why. And I have to say that this latest step by the government-in-power is a very big step forward. My biggest hope is that they continue to make significant progress towards more reasonable policies pertaining to all the many immigration/residency issues here; Greece will be much the better for it.

Regards,

Kat Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 11:23

T,

As you rightly said, Greek law deems someone as legally residing in Greece if they submitted their papers for review and are awaiting a decision. So in essence, they shouldn’t need special permission to be outside the country for any reason. But, in the eyes of Greek authorities, there is a fine line between “residing legally on a pending application” and “being a fully approved official permit holder.” I’m sure you know what I’m talking about when I refer to fine lines.

Non-EU spouses and children are supposed to have equal rights to an EU resident according to an EU directive, but in Greece this is only in theory. What is written and what is implemented or enforced are not always the same thing.

I cannot comment on what you said about Schengen because I do not have intimate knowledge of all Schengen members’ laws and regulations for those waiting for a permit. It could be that they are the same as Greece.

Why is Greece so afraid of letting people with bebaiosis travel and/or leave and re-enter the country? Honestly, I can’t think of a logical reason. It’s not breaching security, and there are no risks I can think of. The real risk is taken by the immigrant, i.e., Whether Greece lets them back in.

  tmr wrote @ November 24th, 2009 at 22:07

I am a first time applicant for residence permit. I’ve read that this law applies to the first-time applicants as well, but I’m in doubt because in the google-translated version of the press release it mentions some paragraph numbers.

In my ΚΑΤΗΓΟΡΙΑ ΑΔΕΙΑΣ it is written: ” ΣΠΟΥΔΕΣ ΣΕ ΕΡΓΑΣΤΗΠΙΑ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΩΝ ΣΠΟΥΔΩΝ (N. 3386/05, αρθρο 30, παρ. 3)

Could you please shed some light on this issue?

Kat Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 07:29

There’s a typo in your Greek portion; it should say ΕΡΓΑΣΤΗΡΙΑ. In any case, I don’t see the confusion. The press release says “the relevant provision of 3386/05,” and your category falls in the same (3386/05) so that applies to you. It doesn’t matter what article or paragraph.

  Silvia wrote @ December 5th, 2009 at 19:48

I don’t know if this is the right place for my comment, but I just wanted to say thank YOU for your great Web site and all the useful info you are giving.

Also I wanted to share my experience with waiting my residence permit/card. It took more than a year and a half to get it. It was such a long period that I started thinking the bebaiosi they gave me the first time was the final permit

Kat Reply:
December 7th, 2009 at 06:31

Thank you for you kind compliment and for stopping in to share your story. Indeed, this is the case for the majority of people.

In the past, the bebaiosi didn’t look so official and couldn’t be mistaken for a permit. It used to be a irregularly cut, badly photocopied, handwritten document with a stapled photo. Some passport control officials in other countries wondered if it was real or if I’d made it myself.

  JustYen wrote @ December 10th, 2009 at 21:45

Hi Kat, First of all, I want to thank you so much for your wonderful site, I know a lot of people tell you this, but I want to let you know how helpful and informative you site has become to me, now that my boyfriend and I are planning to move to Greece, again Thank you so very much.

The reason I am writing to you, and I am sorry this is a bit off-topic, but I was searching on your site about this specific topic is not found anywhere. We are moving to Greece with our beloved pet. I been trying to get some info about bringing our Suzi with us, but there is no much info in the net about bringing dogs to Greece. I know is crazy, but I just can’t leave behind my dog here in Miami. Are Greek laws as strict as they are in England about pets? The Greek consulate here has not been of much help either.
Thank you so much, and a virtual big hug from Florida .

Kat Reply:
December 12th, 2009 at 22:32

Hi Yen, that’s true. There is currently no article on my Web site covering bringing pets to Greece, though one will be offered in the future. My experience is limited because I have no pets, so I’ll need to collect real-life stories from people who did this to supplement official bureaucracy. The best source I can give you right now is an article from the U.S. Embassy in Athens called, “Bringing pets to Greece.”

http://athens.usembassy.gov/ac_pets.html

It is not as strict as the UK. I also recommend calling the airline you choose, as each has its own rules and fees. Thank you for saying hello and look forward to having you stop in again.

  mak wrote @ December 21st, 2009 at 16:04

I keep on asking myself and my Greek friends in Africa why it’s so difficult to get or renew a residence permit in Greece, even when the person provides all the required documents when due. Some will wait six months, some wait two years to get the same permit, some say it depends on who handles your file. I believe only sensitive people should be employed to work at sensitive offices like the periferia.

Kat Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 01:00

I agree with your last statement, but the reason behind this inefficiency is more complex and goes way beyond insensitive employees. We can only hope that things will change in the future.

  The Scorpion wrote @ December 23rd, 2009 at 18:22

I brought my Cat to Greece in 2004. The Greek consulate in Los Angeles advised me to get a current health certificate (must be within a certain number of days days prior to departure–not sure exactly how long), plus i had to have a chip implanted in her because of supposed Euro laws. When I arrived at the Athens Airport, the customs guy looked at my cat, said “What’s this”, and I said “Patriotisa” (compatriot–because she was born in Greece), and he just laughed and looked briefly at the Greek consulate’s stamp on her health certificate, and waved us thru…. As Kat says, results may vary–but that’s my Cat story.

  aly wrote @ January 23rd, 2010 at 00:56

i am confused . my question is i am married to a greek woman i have the bebaiosi can i go back to my country then come back to greece with the bebaiosi only and my passport or do i need another visa or what , i did read the article but i am so confused , i called at the dimos they said it is ok . so what is the truth ?

Kat Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 01:14

Doesn’t matter who you are married to. All that matters is you have an unexpired bebaiosi and an unexpired passport during the time you’re traveling. If you have those two things, you are free to leave and come back from now until December 31, 2010. The dimos and I are saying the same thing. I don’t see the confusion.

There’s no way you could apply for another visa.

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