Kat Reply:
May 15th, 2008 at 20:43

Hi again KT, my belief is you need to at least visit those places and do a little research based on your priorities. I do have opinions on those places, but like I said in the article, it’s really up to you and what you want. Fortunately or unfortunately, I’m the kind of person you could put anywhere and find a way to be happy. I’m from California, so I’m highly biased. I love Mexico, but that’s because I love scuba, can speak Spanish and it’s so close to CA. Also loved Miami for different reasons, and the mosquitoes loved me too.

Most people who criticize me have never lived outside GR or enjoy a lifestyle in GR (connections, parents’ money paid for their education and house, still living at home, team of lawyers, etc.) in which they are never (or hardly) exposed to bureaucracy or infrastructure, so they have no clue what I’m talking about. It’s much easier to call me a liar than admit their own ignorance.

Kat Reply:
July 18th, 2008 at 20:18

Hello there! Your boyfriend is being truthful, and I can’t dispute what he says. You’ll also see many commentators have had the same experience across all nationalities. There is a small minority of people who know a different Greece; and there are people from non-westernized countries that find Greece’s “hassles” to be the same as their homeland. For the record, I never said Athens or Greece is a terrible place to live.

Stories on this site have been somewhat sanitized, i.e., Emotion has been replaced with humor for the sake of keeping topics more objective and readable. And I regret to say that these are not my most awful stories.

People are mystified by my presence in Greece, instead of accepting it and going on with their lives, and I don’t know why. I suppose it’s what my friend N said:
a) Most people who expatriate and have the option to leave would give up and go back home at the first sign of trouble, and it’s baffling as to why I don’t do the same (I’m simply not “most people”);
b) Some people are in denial that I’m being truthful — not critical — about Greece’s ills, same as anyone else who actually lives/works here and is in touch with reality. They take it as being negative when it’s realistic, and “complaining” to which I have no right because I’m a foreigner that chose to live here and therefore should shut my trap and/or “go home.” I find this ironic since I respect and listen to millions spew their anti-American sentiment hourly, even though many get rich off of my flawed country and some haven’t even been there.

If I say that Greece is a perfect country and it’s wonderful to live here, extolling her beauties on a daily basis, I’m called a liar and clueless tourist who doesn’t know how this country works after 11 years. If I say Greece is an imperfect country like every country in the world — as I’m doing now, in a way that is a lot less harsh than many Greeks — I’m called an anti-Greek liar and told to go home. In both cases, I’m called a liar, so I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t.

Greece is my home and has been for 11 years. Every country has its good and bad, every person has their own personal dreams and priorities. If you come here and your priority is to care for his aging parents, then you might find charm and adventure in new things or shift your focus away from the hassles your boyfriend and I reference because your presence serves a bigger purpose. My hope is that I and this site can help you on that journey. Thank you for making a comment today

Kat Reply:
October 25th, 2008 at 22:57

Visiting Greece in summer, and living and working in Greece year round are completely different things. People who move to Greece from the USA usually do it for emotional reasons based on little exposure to reality.

I really don’t know what you mean by, “the relaxed way of life.” Most people who make reference to this “simpler life” are talking about village life, where there aren’t jobs or jobs with salaries much lower than the figures you’re quoting (unless you have connections). Or they’re talking about a life in which parents have provided a mortgage-free home, the female does not work full time and lives off her husband, someone enjoys privilege through corrupt activities (tax dodging, side jobs, bribes, connections, etc.) and has little or no exposure to infrastructure, or retirees who have their own money. To me, life in Athens is definitely more stressful (loud and dirty) than NY for the many reasons I and readers already give in comments all over this website.

Makes no difference if you’re low maintenance or not. Things definitely cost more money here, so whether that’s enough really depends on you; I guess you didn’t read the Greece vs. USA price comparison or how Greek residents pay double compared to other EU nations or take a look at prices in online ads. Also makes no difference if you have a master’s degree, as there is a more than 50% unemployment rate for women, and it will take you more than a year to have your degrees recognized at DOATAP since they’re foreign. It’s even more difficult for females over 30 (like me) since we’re considered useless and good only for babies by GR society. See, “Value of a university degree in Greece.”

I don’t know how you define, “better way of life,” but everyone’s definition of better and best are different. Listening to gushing stories from travelers, newbies to Greece in their honeymoon phase (first 1-5 years) and hyphenated Greeks — who tell stories based on homesickness, idealized memories or as one Greek calls it, “fabricated nostalgia” — will not serve you. Gathering advice from friends and strangers in forums or attempting to take a census from readers of my website (in GR or EN) is also pointless because ultimately this life-changing decision to move to Greece is yours.

If you can’t make this decision on your own, I predict a very tough time for you here, where things are not transparent and people typically dispense erroneous or nationalistic advice. This website is popular with people of all nationalities and has a lot of repeat visitors because it’s the first time people have access to clear, practical information based on ‘what is,’ not rumors, hearsay, tabloid news and reviews of Greece from people trying to sell travel packages.

Kat Reply:
November 25th, 2008 at 06:47

Hi S, thank you for leaving a comment today and saying hello.

There have been a lot of inquiries about choosing life in Greece or choosing a career — not both — and it’s not a coincidence that they’re all from women. Why? Reasons include but are not limited to:
- Men are more often the breadwinner;
- it is more common for a woman to give up her life and career to move with a man, in general;
- it is assumed the woman wants to stop working and raise her children;
- society sees it as more acceptable.

In the case of Greece, there are also nationalistic and patriarchal factors to consider.

There’s a saying that “Greece is good for Greeks,” and this country favors men. This is the frame of reference from which your boyfriend speaks. Non-Greek, non-EU women like you and me have the lowest standing in Greece, and his reality will not be your reality, nor will he ever be able to understand or experience it, and this could leave you feeling isolated and alone. Peace of mind is a rare find in Greece no matter who you are.

Marriage to a Greek helps little. Yes, it gives you a permit that entitles you to live and work in Greece, but you’ll always be the non-Greek wife of ____. His family may have money, property and olive groves; however, they don’t belong to him and therefore don’t belong to you. I’ve lived and worked in Greece for 11 years, I speak Greek, I smile, I’m polite and I know how things work here and what my place is, but I’m literally invisible…well, unless someone is molesting, pointing or staring at me with disdain. No matter how well I’m connected, no matter how rich I am, no matter how fluently I speak Greek and no matter how much I’ve done to fit in, I’ll never be Greek and therefore never good enough. It doesn’t matter who I’m married to and what he has. I will always be a “kseni” (foreigner), and I understand that. It’s historical, cultural and racial, and there’s nothing I can do about it.

The United States is a unique place because you can become an American while still being yourself; you never give up who you are. And because we’ve been raised this way, we forget that the rest of the world isn’t like that or mistakenly fool ourselves that it can be.

Most women who are happy in Greece are:
a) Migrants from Asia, Africa, South America or Eastern Europe;
b) Females from developed countries (USA, Canada, Australia, UK, France, Sweden, Germany, etc.) with no specific career goals;
c) Girls, married or engaged, who live in a semi-protected world — often dependent on their male counterparts, may or may not speak Greek, stay home most of the time, may work a mediocre job or be unemployed and/or have several university degrees they’re not using;
d) Women over 60 enjoying their retirement;
e) Greeks who have never worked in a country outside Greece;
f) Anyone whose parents give them money or property;
g) Anyone in their “honeymoon” period (first 5 years in Greece).

A woman’s willingness to move here sets a bad precedent in that a Greek man expects this type of behavior to continue without compromise because he’s had everything his way since birth. There are exceptions, but very few. And the majority of women not on the list above will eventually divorce or be forced to stay if children are involved.

On the fence are:
- EU citizens who came here decades ago, bought property and/or have lucrative businesses and find it difficult to start over by leaving;
- American/Australian/Canadian women who are divorced from their Greek husbands, but remain here for their children out of choice or out of force because their ex-husbands won’t allow them to leave (it happens much more than you think);
- children of Greek origin who came back or remain here to care for aging parents who refuse to leave Greece.

Anyone I haven’t listed usually stays in Greece for a few months or few years and leaves.

I also know many two-country couples in which the non-Greek woman under 40 is forced to work outside Greece because it was the only way her career could continue, despite having connections, skills, education, multilingual ability and experience. These women know they’ll eventually be forced to come back and have a life with no career, or transfer to a branch in Greece and take a huge pay cut, because their spouses will not or cannot leave Greece, and they do not wish to divorce.

Anna is Greek-American and came to visit her potential fiance in Greece for a month to see if she could make a life of her own if she said ‘yes.’ She’s 32 and speaks Greek fluently. He personally (not his family) owns two successful businesses, two properties and vehicles; is well connected; has acres of olive trees (which I’d like to point out is often a family’s secondary income, not first); and is a nice guy who loved her dearly and wanted to give her everything. She eventually turned down his proposal because no matter what he had, it wasn’t hers and she didn’t want to give up her career and independence, while adding bureaucracy, discrimination and uncertainty to her life. It was not an easy decision to make.

As I say in the post above, I don’t believe anyone — friend, relative, stranger, including me — has the right to advise you on such important decisions, so taking a census from strangers won’t accomplish much. The only recommendation I can make is to visit Greece as a potential resident (not a sightseeing, clubbing traveler) WITHOUT the help of your boyfriend and take a hard look at hospitals, public sector offices and job opportunities.

I commend you for thinking about it seriously, as I know many girls who jumped at a marriage proposal without second thought, after only knowing a boy for a few weeks/months and having long-distance contact after that. Some are happy; many are miserable but won’t admit it openly. To me, it sounds like you’ve already made your decision and are looking for affirmation. But as Socrates says, “To find yourself, think for yourself.”

Kat Reply:
March 18th, 2009 at 18:33

Hi Anastasia, thank you for letting us know your story and letting me know that the pure intention behind this website is reaching people. I hope that you will contribute your experiences in the future or continue to tap this website as a helpful resource if you need it. I have a very nice feeling about you and wish you all the best on your journey!

Kat Reply:
October 2nd, 2009 at 23:45

Most people move to Greece for emotional reasons, not taking into consideration the everyday practicalities of living and working here. There’s nothing wrong with nostalgia, but reality is very different — bureaucracy, high unemployment, high cost of living, bankrupt retirement funds, corrupt judicial system, variable health care.

It’s also important to take into account your husband’s skills, goals and ability to speak Greek. Personally, I don’t think anyone should need convincing — they should want to go at their own free will and not just for you. That’s pretty selfish. I also don’t know why you would use this website to persuade him because I am a stranger and have only told a few stories from my life with a humorous spin; I have not told my worst stories, nor do I journal the everyday struggles I face.

Thank you for leaving a comment today, and please visit again!

Kat Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 12:01

Hi,

I cannot dispense advice on one’s life beyond the article above, “Common jobs in Greece for English-speaking foreigners” and “How Americans can get a permit to live and work in Greece.” Answers come from within, not from strangers on the Internet or even relatives and friends such as the one you mentioned. Moving to Greece and traveling in general are both worthwhile experiences but don’t base your decision on gushing reviews or what a co-worker says.

Being a jack of trades will help you with respect to not being picky about jobs, but it will do nothing when it comes to securing a work permit or competing with thousands of EU citizens already here even if you work illegally. There are tons of certified teachers, certified water ski instructors, waitresses and bartenders in Greece who speak several languages. Equestrian jobs are rare. Experts predict Greece will be in economic crisis until 2012 or beyond, and ‘real’ unemployment currently hovers at approximately 20 percent.

Follow your passion, but be aware that Greece is a tiny country compared to the USA and opportunities will be limited and involve immigration. All the best in whatever you decide, and thank you for stopping by.

Kat Reply:
February 11th, 2011 at 01:31

Unfortunately, German is not one of the four languages I speak so I need to write in English.

What can you expect in the first few months after moving back to Greece? There’s no way to predict how life will be for you and your son because everyone’s experience is different. Therefore, I cannot tell you what to expect or give you advice because I moved here alone as a non-Greek with no family, no Greek language and no help. So it depends on what kind of life you had outside Greece, where you will live in Greece, whether you need to find a job and work, how well you speak/read Greek, how your friends and family treat you, how fast you and your son adjust to change.

If your whole family is here, why not ask them?

Moving anywhere in the world requires you to be OK with the unknown, even if you lived there before. The only way to know how it is here is to come and experience it yourself.

Kat Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 22:14

Moving to Greece is a personal and legal decision. The first thing you should ask yourself as a non-EU citizen is, “Can I get a residence/work permit to move to Greece?” Without EU citizenship or the ability to get a Greek residency permit, you cannot live here.

Please read the information above and follow the links I provided.

Kat Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 02:09

I moved to Greece because it was a dream of mine, not for a man, a job or any other reason, so the answer is yes.

A lot of people move to Greece without being informed. But as you might have read in my “About Me,” I knew about the corruption, discrimination, patriarchalism, red tape, cronyism and other issues that plague Greece and arrived with eyes wide open. I’d done research and interviewed Greeks who were brutally honest with me and lived here all their lives; the only thing I didn’t have was accurate information about bureaucratic processes, which is not so different than today and the reason I started this website.

Greece is a “results may vary” country, so there’s no way to predict what could happen to me or anyone. That’s life. I’m grateful for all experiences because I like the person I’ve become and am proud of my accomplishments.

Arthur Ashe was a great tennis player who contracted AIDS though blood he received during heart surgery. In his biography, the interviewer asked if he was angry at God for doing this to him. He said, “If I’m angry at God for the bad things, I need to be angry at Him for the good things also.”

Thanks for your question.

Kat Reply:
July 30th, 2011 at 06:48

The articles you looked at — How to start a business in Greece, value of a university degree, best jobs in Greece and taste of America in Greece — were all based on factual research, sources that interviewed Greeks and/or first-hand experience living here full time for more than a decade. Regarding moving to Greece, most people already know the positive reasons they’re interested in taking the leap or they wouldn’t be considering it, and what’s a pro to one person is a con to another. It’s subjective. I chose to communicate common sense, as many are under emotional and nostalgic ether and this has nothing to do with practicalities.

People use credit cards to pay for groceries and take cash advances, even if you rarely see Visa transactions during the short time you’re here. The country didn’t get where it is today by political irresponsibility alone. Everyone got a piece of the pie, some have up to 10-15 credit cards and binged on cheap loans, which is why GDP growth skyrocketed after the euro was introduced.

Several Greeks told me in private that your view of life in Greece isn’t based on reality. Their words, not mine. A young Greek today will likely in 10 years be working in another country because he/she could not find work here, start a life and/or support their family. Read “The 592-Euro Generation: Young educated Greeks locked out of their lives.” Only Greeks were interviewed for the article.

The last sentence of your comment also says a lot about you. Good luck.

Kat Reply:
February 4th, 2012 at 10:10

As I say in the post above, nearly everyone moves to Greece for emotional or sentimental reasons, and spending three months here in summer is not an accurate indicator of living full time in Greece. I find it odd that you don’t mention unemployment — which, by the way, is 43.5 percent in your age group and 60 percent for women — so unless your family is independently wealthy and you plan on being a housewife, be prepared to find little or nothing in your field of study and face not having a life or family of your own because you or your future husband cannot make a living. That’s ultimately why Greeks leave. No one wants to live away from their country, parents or grandparents.

Nowhere on this website do I say to not move to Greece, nor do I give reassurances because this country has none to offer.

Kat Reply:
July 16th, 2012 at 13:37

Before Greece’s challenges were made public to the world, I was a lone voice speaking openly and honestly about the reality most of us face in everyday life because I believed (and still believe) it was the right thing to do. It’s the only way to earn respect and build trust.

Thank you for persevering to make a comment. Most people find open posts to call me names, and instead you offered me a rare glimpse of how this website may be having a positive impact.

Wishing you all the best.

Kat Reply:
September 28th, 2012 at 22:03

The so-called magic of any country remains alive as long as one remains a tourist. Even the mundane and oppressive ills of everyday life seem exotic and exciting during the ‘honeymoon period’ after moving to Greece because they’re new.

I wish you luck on your journey and am glad this website can serve you.